Ultimate Doctor Who Madness

[Agrajag]

The spaceship dude said the ship crashed and they hid it while trying to fix it or something, so that's whatever. The ending was the standard deus ex machina ending that like 80% of all episodes have, but the whole rest of the episode was great so I don't really care. Plus the solution still made more sense then the end of Victory of the Daleks.

[Jim North]

The headbutt was a bit too easy for an explanation, love saved the day didn't make much sense, why was the spaceship there and the 'if the doctor touches the button, it's the end of the solar system' came out of no where.

The headbutt was an extension of the Vulcan mind meld thingy that the Doctor has done before, only quicker, dirtier, and more intense. And from their reactions, I don't think either the Doctor or Craig felt it was "easy" in any sense.

Love didn't save the day, at least not directly. The ship was looking for someone who wanted to travel, a mental profile that fit what it required in a pilot, so it was shut down by Craig's desire not to travel, which stemmed from his desire to be near Sophie. Since the ship apparently worked through telepathic contact with the pilot, those desires conflicted with the ship's programming and caused the already malfunctioning computer to fracture even further, causing it to go into a complete shutdown/auto-destruct.

The repair program/auto-pilot says that the ship crash landed and that the pilots died, so it was hiding the ship on top of the flats and disguised itself in order to find a new pilot.

The Doctor causing the destruction of the solar system by touching the control console was a "logical" extension (about as logical as Doctor Who gets, anyway) of the entire reason all of the humans died before . . . the ship was too much for the humans and therefore burned them up, but conversely the Doctor was too much for the ship and would burn it up. The ship looks quite like a prototype TARDIS might, and the Doctor even mentions in passing something to the effect that it looked like someone was trying to build their own TARDIS. Considering that and from the way it was shown that the ship was trying to connect with its potential pilots, it seems likely that the ship works through a telepathic bond with its crew similar to the TARDIS, but far cruder in that it both requires physical contact and it isn't able to compensate for different levels of mental capacity.

My only real problem with the episode was the pacing. I was watching it with a couple of buddies yesterday, and at the very beginning I joked, "Boy, they sure aren't messing around this week!" Little did I know it was actually indicative of the entire episode, which seemed to move forward at breakneck speed for the most part, occasionally hitting speed bump scenes hard enough to cause viewer whiplash.

Past that, it was all pretty awesome. The auto-pilot was nice and creepy, no less for (and, in fact, even more for) the fact that it was going to kill off the entire human race one by one by one. Craig and Sophie were pretty cute together, and seeing all their "almost together" bits made me cringe in all the ways they were meant to. The football scene was excellent and recalled the more sedate scene of the Fifth Doctor playing cricket back in the day.

And yes, the Doctor trying to act human was wonderfully done, and it brilliantly underscored just how different this Doctor is from his previous form. Ten always seemed to me to be one of the most human Doctors. His emotions ran blazingly hot, but he seemed to actually understand humanity in many ways and acted relatively human much of the time. Eleven, on the other hand, has shown many times before in this season that he doesn't quite "get" a lot of human customs, ideals, and feelings, and The Lodger cranks that obliviousness up to . . . well, up to eleven, and it helps establish Matt Smith as his own Doctor. Even when he does accurately see what's going on (he obviously noticed the mutual attraction between Craig and Sophie early on), he continues blundering into those same situations, completely unaware that he's messing them up with his presence.

Doctor Who: Eccentric Time-traveling Cockblocker.

[kleptoman]

Totally called it on the ring.

[kleptoman]

Well well. Wasn't that exciting.

Spoiler: show

I thought it would be river or amy in the box. I should have seen it coming sooner.

[PyscoUno]

i read spoiler last week on the two big reveals in this ep. never again.

Spoiler: show

tho thought he was in the box already

[Agrajag]

I was listening to some podcast about how the new season of Doctor Who is way more story driven and has fewer character-driven episodes and how Rory is the only likeable one because he's the only character who's been developed in any meaningful or consistent way. Unfortunately I kind of agree. The plot mysteries are kinda cool but I care about 11 and Amy way less than 9 or 10 and Rose/Martha/Jack/Donna (9 and Donna are my personal favorites).

The first of the Angels two-parter was the best not only cause it had a cool mystery twist thing, but because the character interactions between River and the Doctor were one of the few real character development bits we've had for 11 so far (also last week's "trying to live as a human" scenes was cool for the same reason). Amy and the Doctor barely interact in any real way that's not just solving the week's plot. And they both seem to always be smarter or stupider as the plot requires (9 and 10 never really ignored obviously weird things just for plot convenience sake, like when 11 writes off Rory being back as a miracle).

Anyway, the new ep: That the Pandorica was made to hold the Doctor was super predictable. I too thought it was gonna be some crazy time shenanigans at first with him being released from it before he got put in, but no dice. I also thought it was possible that Amy was in the box or something.

[Jim North]

Spoiler tags again? Aw, man. I hate having to go through tons of posts with spoiler tags. The whole point of making this thread was so we wouldn't have to use spoiler tags! Y'all let me know when we're all ready to talk about it out in the open!

[Agrajag]

Oh we can talk about it in the open. I totally forgot to not use spoiler tags. I even specifically avoided reading this thread until I had seen the latest ep and then I forgot to not use spoilers when I saw klepto using them.

tl;dr version SPOILER TAGS REMOVED

[Jim North]

I even specifically avoided reading this thread until I had seen the latest ep

That's how I've been handling it! Sometimes it takes me a day or two to get my lazy butt around to watching an episode, so the little New Post marker sits there . . . mocking me.

Anyway! First off I'd like to say that I personally disagree that the Doctor and Amy haven't been getting much in the way of actual characterization. If nothing else, Amy's Choice did scads of that all on its own. I feel their interactions in the Angels two-parter were also as good as the ones between him and River, if not better. Even if the main part of it was actually the Doctor from (most likely) next week's episode. And speaking of River . . . she's starting to wear on me a little bit. I liked her in the library, and she was okay with the Angels, but now I find myself dreading that stupid "hello, sweetie" line and the way they concentrate so much on her being out of sync with the Doctor. Yes, we know, she meets the Doctor in a different sequence that he meets her. I think we've established that part of her character quite well at this point. Just have her pop up, pal around with the Doctor and his sequence-synced companion of the season, and then be off without having to babble about how she knows about this event but not about that event already! And honestly, "Spoilers!" does not make a good catchphrase.

Okay, so, The Pandorica Opens! I, like everyone and their mothers it seems, also guessed that it was the Doctor in the box. Like Pysco and Aggers, I had thought that it would be an older version of him already in there . . . perhaps even the Valeyard, which would have recalled Amy's Choice nicely, seeing as callbacks to the rest of the season were the order of the week. But even though that wasn't quite the case, I still knew it was going to be him the instant he started talking about the being inside the Pandorica being the most destructive force in the universe, that if it set foot on your planet you could be sure that things weren't going to end well, and so on. As soon as the words came out of his mouth, I thought, "Well, hell, that just describes the Doctor, now dunnit?"

Augh! Amy's dead! Okay, so probably not, but they're making it look like she's dead, so I figure I might as well play along.

In other news, yay, Rory's alive! "Ah, but he's an Auton, Jim!" you say? "Ah, but Autons and various other creatures in Doctor Who that try to masquerade as specific people have to keep those people alive in order to telepathically siphon their memories!" I say in return! So he's out there somewhere, which makes me happy! I like Rory.

And speaking of folks showing up again, hey hey, it's General Staal! Or actually, according to the DW Wiki, Commander Stark. But they're played by the same guy! I'm just happy to see that they've finally shown definite proof of the cloning thing in the new series. Every Sontaran before this, including the one that showed up in the Sarah Jane Adventures, was played by a unique actor each. And I like the fellah playing Staal/Stark. He's got a hell of a voice.

And speaking of folks showing up again again, aw jeez, it's the Mighty Morphin' Power Daleks. Who invited their lame asses to the party. Oh, well, with there being a hugenormous gathering of all the Doctor's biggest (and medium sized . . . and bottom tier) enemies, it was unavoidable that they'd be there. But this latest appearance has given me something new to complain about. Now, I might have missed it in Victory of the Daleks, but it seems pretty clear here that their voices have definitely changed. And I don't like it. They're not as bad as the Daleks at the beginning of the TV movie, but bleh. It's still a step down.

Now, I hate to be horrifically nitpicky about things (actually, I enjoy being horrifically nitpicky about things), but I've got a slight problem with the dating in this episode. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the library two-parter in which Song was introduced take place in the 51st century? And didn't the Angels two-parter also take place in the 51st century? And isn't the 51st century generally considered to be Song's home era? And if all that is so, then why is she tooling around in the year 5145 AD? That would place her in the 52nd century, not the 51st. This could, of course, be cleared up if somebody in the show had, I dunno, like a time machine or something . . . but it's still a little strange, and I wonder if perhaps Mr. Moffat might have made a minor mistake with the dates.

Overall, I liked this episode. Seeing all those baddies together was pretty awesome (and it must have cost a small fortune!), the twist was predictable but still satisfying, it's good to have Rory back, and destroying the entire universe is one hell of a cliffhanger. Thank goodness the Brits don't seem to do their season finales like a lot of 'em are done over here . . . I don't think I could take waiting all summer for the conclusion!

[Agrajag]

I think the year was just someone on the writing staff forgetting that years in the 51st century start with 50 and not 51. Oh well. I mean it's shown that both she and the Doctor (and plenty of other people) have access to time travel, so they can fix that pretty easily.


I don't like Amy's Choice specifically because I think it does a terrible job at characterization. Sure she picks Rory or whatever, but it seems way more like we're just told she's in love with him than actually shown it. She's a dick to him and basically ignores him all the time up until he dies, and then she gets all weepy, and then when he comes back she kinda just ignores him again. Having her forget his death seems like a cop-out way of the writers not having to deal with the consequences and emotions that would normally go into a main companions death.

Rory I like because we actually see him grow and change in a logical way. First he's a bit unsure of himself and pissed at the Doctor for stealing his girlfriend. Then after some crazy adventures he becomes a bit more confident and he and the Doctor reconcile and become buds. It's not like Rory and 11 hate each other until at one point the Doctor's like shit he's my best friend I gotta save him, it's more gradually and realistically developed.

The same thing happens in previous seasons. Eccleston doesn't get along with Mickey and Jack at first, but after some shared bonding experiences and adventures they finally all become buds. 9 at the beginning is a bit of a loner, but by the end he has friends and has grown as a person. I love the scene where all of them are chilling in Cardiff having lunch and just recounting stories.

10 also changes. He falls in love with Rose, deals with her death, tries to replace her with Martha and kinda screws that up, then finally gets a more stable platonic relationship with Donna and finally emotionally recovers only to be wrecked again when Donna gets fucked over at the end of season 4. Then the intervening episodes deal a lot with his frustration at not being able to change the things he cares about even though he's a time traveller.

Eleven starts off as a weird eccentric goofball, and kinda nothing changes. Amy trying to shag him and Rory's death should have been huge character developing plots but both were kinda just glazed over. If Rose had actually pulled Eccleston or Tennant into her bed or tongued them it wouldn't have just been forgotten an episode or two later, it would have had repercussions in their interactions for the rest of the season.

Amy's character I don't understand at all. In the first few episodes she has a child-like sense of wonder at time travel and the Doctor, which makes sense given that she regards him as an imaginary friend that visited her as a kid. Then she wants to fuck him for no reason which is totally bizarre to me considering that their previous relationship seemed very father-daughterlike. Then I guess she just forgets that and is back with Rory or whatever. Even though she still seems totally irritated with Rory all the time and they don't have any real romantic scenes together. The earlier episodes and all of their interactions imply that she has little real affection for Rory and is only with him because he was available and in the same town as her and she didn't want to make the effort to find someone else. The only time she really seems to care about him is the two times he dies and her emotions then are totally incongruous with how she treats him the rest of the time.




ANYWAY I guess my point is that their personalities seem to be written to suit the plot rather than the other way around. And whenever they're constrained for time they put plot over people talking. This is probably why you hate River now. They had all sorts of funny dialogue in the old ep and they actually seemed like maybe they could be attracted to one other. They barely talked in this episode. She seemed to only be there because they said she was going to be and they needed another character who could fly the Tardis. They could have replaced her with any other character familiar with the Tardis (another Time Lord/Lady, or maybe even Jack) and the episode wouldn't be any different.

Maybe I'm just complaining too much. But I think they had a good setup in the beginning to tell some interesting stories about these characters and then fucked it up because they wanted to show a bunch of aliens with laser guns instead. If they were doing their job right I should care that Amy is dead and the Doctor is trapped in a box, but I just don't.

[Agrajag]

Oh, and was anyone else kinda annoyed that the Cybermen were totally different then they were in every previous episode of the new season? Like... the human part can die and then the robot parts become the Borg and assimilate someone else? What? And really... the Romans are the greatest fighting force in the universe? Didn't you say the EXACT SAME THING about the Sontarens like two seasons ago? You don't trust 21st century Unit to fight Sontarens but you think a bunch of Roman troops can handle the combined forces of every enemy you've ever made?

[Jim North]

I agree with the stuff about Rory, but pretty much still disagree with you completely about Amy and the Doctor. Amy and Rory rarely seem to have romantic moments with one another because that's entirely the problem with their relationship . . . all of the romance is basically one-sided. Amy grew up pining for the Doctor (she even used to have Rory dress up like the Doctor when they were younger), and so her entire relationship with Rory was somewhat distant on her side because of it. The entire development of their relationship was that she was completely focused on the Doctor and thus didn't realize what she actually had until it was gone. They didn't have much time after that to really show on-screen that their romance had been strengthened, but I feel that what little time they did have in the Silurian two-parter showed that it was getting there. It was mostly small things - when they came out of the TARDIS, she was walking along with Rory instead of the Doctor, she wanted to wait for Rory to catch up while the Doctor wanted to forge ahead, and so forth - but they were there. She wasn't just ignoring him again by any means. Further, even after Rory was gone, it was shown even more just how deeply she cared for him. Even though she had completely forgotten he had existed and she wasn't consciously aware of why she was doing it, she still cried because she missed him. In the most recent episode, she also felt a connection with the ring, and her completely remembering Rory and sticking with him even with the threat he posed was quite a romantic scene between them, I thought. And these instances also show that the writers aren't avoiding the consequences and emotions of a companion's death, they're just showing them via a different method than usual.

Eleven has also changed. Beyond the fact that he's just been getting weirder, more eccentric, and more goofballier as the season goes along, Amy's advances and Rory's death have been developing points for him. Amy coming on to him was the entire reason they picked Rory up to travel with them in the first place, it's one of the backing elements for Amy's Choice, and it was a character defining moment for Eleven in the overall Doctor characterization. Ten may have dug the human chicks, but his absolute rejection of Amy's sexual assault showed that Eleven ain't into that shit.

Rory's death also effected him, but he's been trying to hide it for Amy's sake. It was the reason he took Amy on several especially nice trips, like to go see a van Gogh exhibit. It's why he made minor slipups in referencing Rory during tense moments in the adventure right after. And it's almost certainly why he's been keeping Rory's ring in his pocket instead of just hiding it somewhere deep in the TARDIS' labyrinthine rooms.

I never thought of the Doctor and Amy's relationship as being father/daughter, but more teacher/student . . . which I vaguely remember having mentioned before. And considering that she did have Rory dress up as the Doctor at some point, she kept on fantasizing about him for most of her life (mostly likely including puberty), and she isn't the first woman to meet him as a kid and then fall in love with him later (like a certain French lady), it doesn't seem that strange or out of nowhere to me that she'd have the hots for teacher. I actually rather expected it would happen at some point.

While things are happening quite fast and I see where that might put you off, it seems to me that the way all three characters have acted and reacted so far have followed a logical procession of characterization and development.

Anywho, no, the reasons I'm getting to hate Song are exactly what I said they were. I'm really starting to despise "Hello, sweetie!" and "Spoilers!" as catchphrases, the focus on her being out of sync is almost as bad as the constant focus on the Daleks, and her personality overall is just starting to grate. I have no problem with her being an interchangeable character in this episode and wouldn't have minded at all if she'd been replaced with Cap'n Jack . . . I do have a problem with her character period. I just feel that she seems like an initially good idea that isn't panning out like it should have.

[Jim North]

Oh, and was anyone else kinda annoyed that the Cybermen were totally different then they were in every previous episode of the new season? Like... the human part can die and then the robot parts become the Borg and assimilate someone else? What?

Well, hey, the Daleks evolved (even as badly handled as it was), so why can't the Cybermen evolve, too?

And really... the Romans are the greatest fighting force in the universe? Didn't you say the EXACT SAME THING about the Sontarens like two seasons ago? You don't trust 21st century Unit to fight Sontarens but you think a bunch of Roman troops can handle the combined forces of every enemy you've ever made?

Different Doctors, different perspectives . . . plus, ya gotta work with what you've got.

[Agrajag]

Even though she had completely forgotten he had existed and she wasn't consciously aware of why she was doing it, she still cried because she missed him.

To me this is more the writers saying "Amy is in love with Rory" rather than showing us she is in love with Rory or why she has any reason to be in love with Rory. It feels like lazy writing to me.

Rory's death also effected him, but he's been trying to hide it for Amy's sake. It was the reason he took Amy on several especially nice trips, like to go see a van Gogh exhibit. It's why he made minor slipups in referencing Rory during tense moments in the adventure right after. And it's almost certainly why he's been keeping Rory's ring in his pocket instead of just hiding it somewhere deep in the TARDIS' labyrinthine rooms.

Alright this is all true. I guess I just wish it had been more explicitly dealt with rather then "oh yeah the Doctor's upset, ok we showed that for a few seconds now we can have him act normal for the rest of the episode"

While things are happening quite fast and I see where that might put you off, it seems to me that the way all three characters have acted and reacted so far have followed a logical procession of characterization and development.

It's not that it's happening too fast. I mean we had exactly the same amount of time with 9 and I cared about him way more at the end. Hell we only had Jack for like 3 episodes and I still cared about him. Maybe it's not that they're not developed, they're just developed in a way that makes them weird and unlikeable. In this series the Doctor's just a crazy alien. And yes he's always been a crazy alien, but he's also usually normal/human enough that you can understand him and relate to him. Smith just seems crazy and goofball all the time except when he decides to be extremely serious and melodramatic out of the blue. Maybe I don't care about Amy because she's a huge bitch to her fiance and seems to only want what she can't have.

Anywho, no, the reasons I'm getting to hate Song are exactly what I said they were. I'm really starting to despise "Hello, sweetie!" and "Spoilers!" as catchphrases, the focus on her being out of sync is almost as bad as the constant focus on the Daleks, and her personality overall is just starting to grate. I have no problem with her being an interchangeable character in this episode and wouldn't have minded at all if she'd been replaced with Cap'n Jack . . . I do have a problem with her character period. I just feel that she seems like an initially good idea that isn't panning out like it should have.

No I agree with your gripes about her. My point was that instead of throwing in a couple of her stupid catchphrases and making another reference to their out-of-syncness they should have put in some witty banter between her and the Doctor like they did last time and in Library. It seems like they just put her here because it's on a checklist of "Overall River/Doctor Plotline" and not because her character is interesting or actually brings anything to this story.

Well, hey, the Daleks evolved (even as badly handled as it was), so why can't the Cybermen evolve, too?

Yeah I suppose. Although do the Cybermen have time travel? It seems that whenever the Doctor is, his enemies show up. Even though sometimes from their perspective he hasn't done anything to them yet if they don't have time travel themselves.

[Jim North]

To me this is more the writers saying "Amy is in love with Rory" rather than showing us she is in love with Rory or why she has any reason to be in love with Rory. It feels like lazy writing to me.

But that's one of the points I'm trying to get at. For a long time, she didn't have a reason to be in love with Rory. It wasn't until Amy's Choice that she finally saw him for what he was: a real person who's there for her, loves her, and would do anything for her. As much as she may idolize the Doctor, he can't give her the same. Add in that Rory sacrificed himself to save her hero from the Silurian heat ray, there was plenty of reason for her to be in love with him and cry over his forgotten death.

Maybe it's not that they're not developed, they're just developed in a way that makes them weird and unlikeable. In this series the Doctor's just a crazy alien. And yes he's always been a crazy alien, but he's also usually normal/human enough that you can understand him and relate to him. Smith just seems crazy and goofball all the time except when he decides to be extremely serious and melodramatic out of the blue. Maybe I don't care about Amy because she's a huge bitch to her fiance and seems to only want what she can't have.

What does it say about me that I find Eleven to be quite understandable and relatable?

And I've never particularly seen Amy's attitude toward Rory as being bitchy . . . more oblivious than anything. And as I said above, there were lots of signs that she and Rory started getting on better just before he got sucked into the crack, so I hardly think it's an instance that she only wants what she can't have.

Well, hey, the Daleks evolved (even as badly handled as it was), so why can't the Cybermen evolve, too?

Yeah I suppose. Although do the Cybermen have time travel? It seems that whenever the Doctor is, his enemies show up. Even though sometimes from their perspective he hasn't done anything to them yet if they don't have time travel themselves.

The old Cybermen had time travel, but as far as I can recall, the Cybusmen do not. Their appearance here (as well as that of all the other non-time traveling species) is probably due to the Daleks being part of the alliance, as they do have time travel technology.