Australian Sex Party

[kleptoman]

To try to stop cluttering up the DEAT thread, and so you can ignore it if you want to.

To promote ignorance, they'd have to try and dissuade people from trying to learn about religions outside of school or somehow accomplish the nigh impossible task of keeping their students from learning religion even exists. To promote atheism, they'd have to be teaching people that creator deities aren't real. Simply not teaching religion does not actively promote either of these things.

Alright, that seems fair.

And more further, it would be a violation of the separation of church and state for public schools to teach about any religion or religions.

Why? The only part of your constitution

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

How does learning about relgions qualify this? It doesn't have the equivalent american first amendment provision of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," so technically there isn't even separation of church and state in Austrailia. So for one, it can't be breached. (Feel free to prove me wrong on this one

For another point I would argue it wouldn't breach the separation of church and state, if there was one. Teaching would not be promoting religion, but teaching people what are the practices and beliefs of those who practice it. After all, how can you say all religions or belief systems are right? An if you did, wouldn't that be the same as saying they're all wrong?

There are colleges and universities that do so, however - the college I briefly attended had Philosophy and Religion classes both - which is quite appropriate since people old enough to attend college would definitely be old enough to make their own decisions regarding what religion they would want to be a part of.

I think teenagers in highschool are capable of making informed decisions about religion. If I'm right in thinking that not all americans go to college, then a fair few won't have this opportunity. Yeah, you can read about it on the internet or wikipedia, but to have someone who understands them draw parallels or comparisons between religions, or on hand explanation of principles would be greatly beneficial.

Also I'd like to point out I'm not arguing that everyone should be taught about all relligions. I'm agruing against it being banned.

[Jim North]

How does learning about relgions qualify this?

Imposition of religious observance.

I had considered going into this over in the other thread myself but didn't, but I'll go ahead and say it here. One of the major problems that would arise from trying to teach religion in schools is the enormous brouhaha that would result. The schools and the government would both come under vicious attack from religious families for trying to force learning about other religions on their kids. The Christians of the US especially would be up in arms once they found out that their kids were learning about Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and all those other crazy non-Christian religions outside of a purely historical context. Instituting a religion class in public schools would cause absolutely nothing but trouble because so many people wouldn't want their kids learning about all these different religions, and they would most definitely view it as having these other religions forced on the children.

For another point I would argue it wouldn't breach the separation of church and state, if there was one. Teaching would not be promoting religion, but teaching people what are the practices and beliefs of those who practice it. After all, how can you say all religions or belief systems are right? An if you did, wouldn't that be the same as saying they're all wrong?

Part of the problem with this is you can't teach all religions or belief systems in such a class. Some are always going to be left out due to time or budget constraints, or some might get less coverage than others, or even if they all get the same amount of time, there will be plenty of religious nuts out there who will insist that they don't, or who will insist that their religion be the one that gets preferential treatment.

Because of the limitations, the schools might end up promoting one or a few religions over others inadvertently. Because of the people raging against it from the outside, there's always going to be the thought that they're promoting one or a few over others whether it's true or not.

I think teenagers in highschool are capable of making informed decisions about religion.

Whether I agree with you or not (I do, generally, on this part), this does not mean that the government should be the ones helping them make this decision.

Yeah, you can read about it on the internet or wikipedia, but to have someone who understands them draw parallels or comparisons between religions, or on hand explanation of principles would be greatly beneficial.

Gosh, if only there were already places you could go where there were experts on religion, where you could get the information about a religion directly from the very people who teach it and observe it, some place like . . . like a church, or a synagogue, or a temple or something, just like I suggested over in the other thread along with books and the internet and such!

IF ONLY!

PS, I'm saying that there are plenty of actual, hands on places folks can go to learn all kinds of religions, that many people in charge of those religions have become more well-versed in the religions of others over the years, and that with all of these different sources combined - not just one of them separate from the others - a person can get a much more thorough, personally experienced, and well-rounded view of various religions than could ever be taught in public schools. I took advantage of all of these wonderful resources myself as a teenager while I was developing my own beliefs and ideals, and it worked out quite well, in my opinion.

Also I'd like to point out I'm not arguing that everyone should be taught about all relligions. I'm agruing against it being banned.

If you're not arguing the first, then I don't see how the second is of any importance to you either way.

[kleptoman]

If you're not arguing the first, then I don't see how the second is of any importance to you either way.

I think learning about people's religions can give you a greater understanding of the way people think and act. I also recognise it's not going to be always easy to teach, that some schools may not due to the opinions of parents, and that not everybody would want to. I'm arguing that the schools should be able to give the opportunity if they want, that it shouldn't be banned by law.

[Jim North]

I'm arguing that the schools should be able to give the opportunity if they want, that it shouldn't be banned by law.

Now see, I'm really thinking things are proceeding from a misunderstanding here. Public schools shouldn't be able to do this, and for the reasons already given. Further, public schools are run by the government, and the government doesn't want to have this opportunity, also for the reasons already given.

Private schools and - as already pointed out - colleges and other privately owned institutions of learning aren't banned by law from teaching these things. I attended a private school myself until I was 13, and it was extremely Christian oriented. I remember learning in 4th grade science how wonderful it was that God created physics and biology and stuff for us to figure out. When we learned about evolution, the teacher started off by writing on the chalkboard - and I'm not kidding or exaggerating here - "Evolution is the false belief that . . . "

Bottom line, the government has banned itself from teaching religion in its own schools - and for good reason - while it allows schools run by other folks to do so if they wish, as long as they follow various other standards of education that all schools must follow, of course. At least, that's the way it is in the US, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm all for the US government banning itself from doing anything, especially personal matters it has no place getting involved with anyway, be it for good, for ill, or with indifference.

[kleptoman]

I attended a private school myself until I was 13, and it was extremely Christian oriented. I remember learning in 4th grade science how wonderful it was that God created physics and biology and stuff for us to figure out. When we learned about evolution, the teacher started off by writing on the chalkboard - and I'm not kidding or exaggerating here - "Evolution is the false belief that . . . "

See, this makes me think we're talking about entirely different things. That's teaching from a religious viewpoint. I'm talking about teaching what religions practice and their affect on the world. I'm talking about teaching a subject with neutrality instead of having it banned, you're talking about teaching all subjects with bias.

Bottom line, the government has banned itself from teaching religion in its own schools - and for good reason - while it allows schools run by other folks to do so if they wish, as long as they follow various other standards of education that all schools must follow, of course. At least, that's the way it is in the US, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm all for the US government banning itself from doing anything, especially personal matters it has no place getting involved with anyway, be it for good, for ill, or with indifference.

I was also not talking about the US. We're talking about the policies of the Austrailian Sex Party. We're talking of austrailia which has no legal separation of state and church. I think we're arguing completely differenent.

[Jim North]

See, this makes me think we're talking about entirely different things. That's teaching from a religious viewpoint. I'm talking about teaching what religions practice and their affect on the world. I'm talking about teaching a subject with neutrality instead of having banned, you're talking about teaching all subjects with bias.

That was just an example showing that religion can be taught in private schools. Exactly how they went about it wasn't the point. They could have just as easily had it as a balanced representation of religions if the people in charge had wanted that.

I was also not talking about the US. We're talking about the policies of the Austrailian Sex Party. We're talking of austrailia which has no legal separation of state and church. I think we're arguing completely differenent.

As far as I can see, you never mentioned it in conjunction with the ASP. From your original post, it just looked like you were bringing the topic up in general, and that's how I've been pursuing the conversation. You should have made it clear that you were talking purely about Australian politics from the start.

[kleptoman]

As far as I can see, you never mentioned it in conjunction with the ASP. From your original post, it just looked like you were bringing the topic up in general, and that's how I've been pursuing the conversation. You should have made it clear that you were talking purely about Australian politics from the start.

My bad. So are you still against it if it's taught in a neutral fashion?

[Jim North]

My bad.

No problem. Honestly, I was just a post or two away from finally outright asking "What's up with the title of this thread, anyway?" I'd been confused this whole time.

So are you still against it if it's taught in a neutral fashion?

I haven't said at any point that I'm against teaching religion, so I'm not entirely certain why you say "still against it". In fact, I gave examples of where people can go to get that teaching and stated approval of their use. What I'm against is the government - any government - being involved in any way, regardless of how it's taught, as they have no place in that arena. Private institutions, as I've already intimated, I figure can do as they please since they are meant to provide services that people desire, such as classes on religion.

[Ben]

Can I just say, that what you're talking about Klepto. That isn't what happens in Australia, and as such it isn't what the Australian sex party are campaigning against.

To understand there policies regarding education in Australia, it helps to have been through the Australian education system.
How religious lessons at the moment work.

I went to Cleveland High School, the public school for Cleveland.
According to the census the maority of Cleveland is christian.

So for 6 weeks once a week, Christian RE is taught at school. These lessons take over the current lessons that the students would normaly have. For example we had RE on friday before morning tea. This was originaly a tripple art lesson, so we were then missing out on one period of art to be taught Christian religion.

Students are not alowed to opt out of this, to get out of it you need to have a permission form signed by your parents. If you do opt out of this you can go to the library for the period and do whatever the fuck you want.

The religion lessons arn't so much lessons as they are sermons. A guy comes in, if you're lucky a particularly religious teacher, but more often then not a priest from the local church, and you get preached at for half an hour.

So what is basically happening, is that in public school, kids are missing out on the lessons they should be learning in order to have a religious faith taught to them. WIth little to no choice themseleves.

In an ideal world, yeah having an elective subject that taught about the multitude of different religions would be a good thing. Hell I would have taken it if it was offerd.

Keep in mind that schools also have an RE room that's open all through both lunches all year if kids really want to go out and find out information about the local religion they can do it any lunch hour they want.

Also keep in mind RE happens all through primary and highschool. I've been being taught the christian faith at school since I was in year 4 (I did school of the air prior to that) Listening to these lessons is the main reason I became an Atheist. (infact I can remember the exact moment in an RE lesson in year 7 when I decided all this god stuff was wrong)

As it stands RE is completley fucked up, wastes time from kids that want to be learning. Fucks around with the teachers who have planned there lessons around having a certain amount of classes, and attempts to force religion onto young children.

Again, yes ideally it would be awesome to have a subect taught that teaches you a multitude of diffrent religions from an actual teacher instead of the local preist. But financially and practically that isn't going to happen. As it stands RE in our schools is fucked up and I would support every effort to end it.

[kleptoman]

I don't know how to continue arguing without being a troll and just disagreeing with people. Shall we end this here?

[Knight]

This is the Internet klepto, you're supposed to argue until each side hates each other so much that a lifelong grudge is made and makes the forum awkward to be on forever.

[kleptoman]

Oh, ok, let me give it a shot.

Over-zealous religious dragons should be present in every class! EVERY CLASS!

[Tekkactus]

I HATE JEWS AND CHINESE PEOPLE.

[Jim North]

ANARCHY!

[Knight]

THINK OF THE CHILDREN